Walther splits the FLDS custody cases. What does that say about the warrants?

It would seeem now all the cases are individual. Individual by mother, individual by child. They are grouped by mother. This is a concession that the "one household" theory is a bust. The San Angelo Standard-Times;

"(Judge Barbara) Walther split Case No. 2902 - which included more than 300 children - into 110 cases grouped by mother, and Case 2903, which included more than 30 children, into nine cases, also grouped by mother. They join 125 cases filed separately by the state's Child Protective Services agency, which removed nearly 440 children from the sect's Schleicher County compound in early April."

It's on a Friday afternoon, which means they don't want to talk about it. You dump something you want to hide on a Friday afternoon, or you dump a rumor you want to have maximum effect on a Friday afternoon. You also rule in an unfavorable way on a Friday afternoon so that it's two or three days before it's effect can be appealed.

I think this means the first warrant is swept aside completely. This also has implications for the second warrant, since the Texas Rangers were at the YFZ Ranch on the basis of the first warrant and searched the whole ranch as a single household. These are now all individual cases.

UPDATED THOUGHTS: This is also a prelude to dropping any claim to the vast majority of the children, which is the GOOD news. The BAD news is that we will soon see which children then intend to keep. In all honesty I think it's possible that there won't be any. One of these Friday afternoons, perhaps even this one, a good deal of them will be dropped. Maybe they don't want to give the parenting classes after all. I've alays had the distinct impression the parenting classes were just necessary window dressing. Drop these cases now, and you don't have to hold as many of them, it's a budget/enthusiasm thing.

We then move on to a criminal phase, and it's back to the warrants issue. I can't honestly see how Walther holds that together, or any subsequent judge does in a criminal proceeding. Up until now we've dealt with the rather liberal interpretations of law permitted in the supposedly "civil" action that custody is. Transferring the evidence of the raid to a criminal case is dicey. More →

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Who reads what sites on the FLDS Issue? Where's the interest?

When it comes to WHERE people go outside the mainstream media to get their information about the FLDS Fiasco, where do people go? These are United States Alexa rankings for some blogs and some websites. I hardly pretend to make it all inclusive but I've included the three ANTI FLDS sites that I know of, that should be considered prominent.

"Free the FLDS Children" - United States - 31,339
"FLDS View" - United States - 79,512
"I Perceive" - United States - 121,156
"Texas Polygamy" - 145,851
"The Common Room" - 153,680
"The Modern Pharisee" - United States - 199,050
"The Hope Organization" (Child Brides) - United States - 261,641
"The Tapestry Against Polygamy" - United States - (ranking too low to quantify)

The top three are all WRITTEN by members of the LDS church, the FLDS church or include FLDS in their name. I didn't include blogs like "Grits For Breakfast" which has covered the FLDS controversy from day one, but is also not primarily about the raid and it's fallout. I did include "I Perceive" who seems to have gotten a lot of gravitational assist from the issue. Kurt has written some great articles over the last several weeks and is getting information people don't even HINT at to me. My blog in fairness is not about the FLDS either, but it has primarily been about that since mid April and will be for at least a little while longer.

Recently a blog mentioned a petition, I believe it was the Brooke Adams, where ANTI Polygamy/FLDS persons were trying to get support and it pretty much got signed by the people who came up with the petition. The PRO FLDS petetition, not necessarily the PRO POLYGAMY petetition was getting an overwhelmingly larger response.

What does this say about public view and opinion of the issue? It would seem to suggest that there is more sympathy for the rights of the FLDS than the concern about stopping their rumored child abuse. That's all it is now, a rumor started by people who HATE the FLDS.

The only ANTI site that draws a bigger crowd than mine on the subject, is "Texas Polygamy," which makes a show of being neutral, but is in fact an ANTI FLDS site. Based on the above rankings, Bill at Save the FLDS Children and Kurt at I Perceive should have their own Discovery channel documentary made about their interests, just as Flora Jessops did. It would probably pull more in the way of rankings. I'd like to be on too, but Texas Polygamy outranks me. It should be noted however that I've only been blogging in earnest since April and I don't have the sexy name that Bill chose. More →

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Yeah, parenting class, that's it, it's a "Parenting Class" (nudge nudge wink wink)

The total lack of abuse discovered at the FLDS ranch suggest we should all be polygynists, yet the State of Texas is customizing it's "Parenting Classes" to fit the FLDS. Want a sample of the agenda?

"During hearings prior to those rulings, Child Protective Service workers had said that one aim of the parenting classes would be to educate FLDS parents about Texas laws regarding marriage, bigamy and other legal issues."

Yeah, that's right, a, um, "Parenting Class." Sounds like a brainwashing session. Oops, sorry, a "Deprogramming the cult" session. The article appears in the Salt Lake Tribune.
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Schleicher County whining that it will go bankrupt.

In the Deseret News. Now they're arguing over who picks up the tab. Classic.

"The tiny county that has been the eye of the storm over the raid on the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch says it could go bankrupt if the state of Texas doesn't indemnify it against millions of dollars in bills.

Schleicher County recently passed a resolution declaring that it has limited financial resources and its taxpayers are burdened beyond their means by the raid's extraordinary costs. The resolution says Texas Child Protective Services instituted 'a costly procedure without the knowledge of Schleicher County against residents,' and county officials have no way of controlling it.

'They're the ones that initiated the proceedings,' Schleicher County Judge Johnny Griffin told the Deseret News on Monday. 'There's costs sent to us that we didn't initiate and the county didn't authorize.'"

Aw, and they just put the hurtin' on the biggest taxpayer in the county, what a shame.

"The state has verbally agreed to pick up the tab, but Griffin said they would like to see it in writing. Nearby Kerr County passed a resolution last week supporting Schleicher County's request for indemnification."

And they never lie.

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Genocide - How Texas may have gotten what it wanted.

Victory may be hollow for the FLDS. The four Attorneys General and Texas may have gotten their way after all;

The San Antonio Express-News - "The 10,000 or so followers of the insular group are still isolated and more scattered than ever outside their Utah-Arizona home turf.

Some are in South Dakota; many remain in Texas.

They apparently don't gather for church services anymore. Jeffs called a halt to Sunday services in the group's historic stronghold, the Utah/Arizona border towns of Hildale and Colorado City, in 2003 after insisting that God had turned his back on his followers there because they were unworthy.

At the Texas ranch, the sect stopped using its massive white limestone temple after authorities searched it during the raid in early April, said the group's attorney, Rod Parker, who is not a sect member.

While FLDS parents won a spectacular court victory against the state of Texas last month, winning back every one of the more than 440 children placed into protective custody, only about half the families that lived at the Yearning for Zion Ranch have returned there, Parker said.

The rest, too fearful to return, are still dispersed across the state in a society they shun, living in apartment complexes and working jobs wherever they can find them."

Law enforcement in several states have clearly targeted the Church Leadership, and while the vacuum existed, they struck, exposing the lack of leadership and scattering followers everywhere. Apparently they knew their job, and did it well. Genocide indeed.

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The outrage of Texas

That's right, we want all the mom's to be single parents on welfare.

"If they take a hard line on polygamy, you're putting a lot of moms out there who are now single parents," she said. "If abuse is even living on that ranch, you've made them all homeless, and that's a real potential problem."

To my knowledge, few if any YFZ ranch dwellers were on welfare prior to the raid. They're starting to get on the welfare roles now. They will all be if the moms get their kids back the way the state wants it to be.

Honestly, those of you who think Polygyny is wrong. Is this better? No dad. Working Mom. Welfare? Public housing? Public Schooling? Do you REALLY believe that? If you count up all the boys and girls that fled YFZ or were kicked out in the way that the enemies of the FLDS want you to, is this still not a lower delinquency rate than society at large?

This is the path of liberalism. Find an exception and dwell on the pathos and tragedy of that exception. The same liberals will travel as anthropologists to another land and marvel at the efficiency of a tribal group that does similar things and try to preserve them as some sort of necessary curiosity.

What jaw dropping hypocrisy. More →

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Attorneys try to separate FLDS cases.

Brooke Adams is a great writer and a great observer. All of that means Great Reporter. There's not much to comment on here. You need to read it though to see if you're up to speed for next weeks battles in court. The Salt Lake Tribune.

"'If individual children were wrongfully swept up in this raid because they have been neither abused nor neglected, the ongoing injustice to them is an unnecessary and indescribable tragedy,' said Polly R. O'Toole, a Dallas attorney who represents one child."

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Ask Rick Perry Why He's Wasting Your Money Texas, on the FLDS FIASCO

I was waiting for this one. It's the tip of the iceberg, I promise you.

The Austin American-Statesman - "The massive child welfare operation that began in early April with a state raid of a West Texas ranch owned by a polygamous sect cost nearly $7.5 million in the first 19 days, according to records from Gov. Rick Perry's office.

A spokeswoman for Perry cautioned that the numbers — obtained through the Texas Public Information Act — are preliminary and unaudited, and Perry's office has yet to release official costs."

And they've got NOTHING. No charges, no evidence, no warrants, no suspects. PULL THE PLUG NOW. Where are the "Fiscal Conservatives" on this issue? This has been going on for 43 days, not 19. Expect the costs to treble, quadruple. More.

Rick, you owe the taxpayers of Texas an explanation for this state funded personal hate crusade.

Pull up a chair, get your popcorn. It's the epic real time CPS reality show, with no winners, on Texas Taxpayer Pay Per View.
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USA Today Questions Texas.

Brooke Adams over at the Salt Lake Tribune noticed a USA Today column. Hat tip to her.

"Anti-cult stereotypes can cause government to forget about some religions’ pesky First Amendment protections."

More →

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Weekend News Roundup. What did we learn on the Blog this weekend Hugh?

All here on your friendly Modern Pharisee's blog.

Highlights....

Mark Shurtleff, the Utah Attorney General nearly begged polygyny advocates to help decriminalize the practice. Apparently he will co-operate after the election to get it reduced to traffic ticket status.

Texas Mental Health workers confirm early reports that FLDS women were being told to co-operate by going to "abused women shelters" or they would not see their children again. I can only conclude this was to gain traction for the idea that the CPS had that there were abused women. Having women report to shelters for abused women made it look like there was abuse. Also Mental health workers were fired for being too compassionate with FLDS scum. Mental health workers were appalled and horrified.

Texas in it's infinite brilliance is trying to test the idea of illegal polygyny by picking a more unsavory target, the "Yahweh" sect. Apparently they think they can go where Mark Shurtleff fears to tread.  (Update "Religion Clause" noticed this as well.)

Government can tell us if our religion is dangerous, and target it for destruction.

There is a grassroots movement afoot that is in favor of legalizing polygyny. My, um "Friend" "Mary Contrary" tried to abduct an idea she knew was mine from three years ago and call it hers. No Mary, you heard it from ME first.

Texas still can't count, there are now 468 children, and the MSM can't read, as most stories still list another number, 463 and 464 being the most popular choices.

The Main Stream Media, which includes Fox News, CNN and every major network are afraid of the story and hope it goes away. Probably by way of some spectacular crime being uncovered, so that they can ignore "all of the above."

My wife got a great Mother's day gift. Her daughter graduated with "High Honors" from the University of Montana . More →

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LDS Chickens, are coming home....to roost.

I almost wish the Republicans do select Romney as running mate just so the issue will come up in the election. Besides, Romney is a skilled campaigner. McCain could do worse.

The Deseret News - "Last month's raid on the Fundamentalist LDS Church in Texas could prevent Mitt Romney from being picked as the Republican vice-presidential nominee, one of his longtime supporters says."

Mitty, you got a lot of 'splainin' to do. More →

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FLDS woman explains name confusion.

Texas complains that FLDS members are deceiving them with a deliberate confusion of names.

The Houston Chronicle - "Jessop denied any of the parents intentionally misled investigators. But her explanation of her own name would confuse anybody.

'I say my name is Gladys Lindsay. They say, "It's Gladys Jessop." My legal name is Gladys Jessop but because I answer to Gladys Lindsay they say I am lying.'"

Um, this is easy. It's cultural. In Korea for instance if your name was Park Chung He, we called him Mr. Park (pronounced "Pak") or President Park. In a world of Jeffs, Jessops, Barlows and Steeds, Gladys distinguishes herself by using a less common additional name. Instead of calling herself Gladys Lindsay Jessop, she shortens it to Gladys Lindsay. Mystery solved. Texas gets angry and calls her a liar. Sounds like they don't speak the lingo. Of course the writer of the article sides with the state of Texas and calls her Gladys Jessop;

"For women who have shunned the modern world, Sarah Steed and Gladys Jessop have become surprisingly adept at navigating it.

Connected by cell phone to the attorneys and CPS workers they speak with daily, they have become overnight experts on the ins and outs of Texas family law. They wear out their phone batteries each day, using the phones to determine their children's whereabouts and their legal rights.

Gladys, the combative one who often speaks for Sarah, says they've learned they can say no to investigators and reporters.

'It's none of your business,' she said, when asked if she was in a polygamous marriage."

Oh good for her. Hey, aren't these controlled and intimidated women? Dumbed down with drugs and inbreeding and repression? That answers why is the writer so surprised they can function so easily and stand up for themselves.

The San Angelo Standard-Times seems to think it's important to mention that the kids are on par in education with others.

"(Delma) Trejo indicated the children's education level is on par with that of other children their age."

Surprise, surprise.

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Talking Back to Western Attorneys General

From the Deseret News;

ST. GEORGE — "The attorneys general for Utah and Arizona agreed Thursday that Texas was right in its removal of hundreds of FLDS children from the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, more than a month ago."

Yes, and Texas still wants us to believe there might be a Sarah too. Similar statements of sincere belief were made by justice systems all over the country right up until the point that DNA evidence freed people from death row. Don't think a Bureaucracy's highest ranking officer is going to get there or stay there by saying "well dang, I think we/they really went overboard" when referring to their department or a similar one from which they may need cooperation in another state.

Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard - "There was one person with control over the whole structure and kids were getting hurt."

Yes, and that one person was? You've already had the trial and determined "kids were getting hurt?" I'm not aware of a child that has come forward and said they are getting hurt. He goes on to say;

"I think they are rapidly coming to the conclusion that it's an inherently dangerous place and there aren't adults there who are sufficiently powerful to stand up to protect the children,"

But Terry Secrest just said that the mothers "All seem strong and independent." Excuse me, but just how strong and independent do you need to be?

Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff chimed in;

"Shurtleff said the Texas raid on the FLDS people occurred because 'some polygamous leaders have put their people in harm's way.'"

There it is again. Confidently talking as if there was a crime and a guilty party. It would be one thing if there was a dead body and they were confidently seeking a suspect or holding one and talking up their guilt however, there is no crime. What Texas saw when they entered the YFZ Ranch is not Prima Facie evidence of a crime. I'm reminded of the Monty Python "Bring out your dead" bit in "Holy Grail" where the dead body protests the exaggerated reports of its demise. Most out there in the world around us still think the Texas CPS saw a crime, they did not. It remains significant that existing law enforcement agencies could not find a crime to prosecute and it's now about a month and a half later. Instead Texas punted to a special prosecutor. Shurtleff continues;

"Instead of cooperation they've engaged in manipulation, distortion and lies. It's unfortunate so few are giving a bad name to so many."

Again, guilt before a crime has been found. Typically when you're in an argument with an unscrupulous opponent, they quickly try to divert attention from their own misdeeds, by accusing you, of what they just did. The above statement is a perfect description, of Texas. All this bravado is discounted by his next remark;

"We assure you we do not plan a raid (here) to end polygamy. We are not going to do that. I don't care how many talking heads on TV tell us to 'cowboy up' and be like Texas, we don't believe that's the answer."

Interpretation? "Between you and me, Texas flew off the handle and we're not going to do that here in Utah." This next bit is good;

"And yet, many members in the audience, which included hundreds of people from various polygamous groups, said they were not convinced their lifestyle is safe from prosecution."

Ya think? I'd be a little nervous too when politicians do what they do best, which is talk out of both sides of their mouth and wait to see how the chips fall. When they fall, they won't remember saying the things that reassured you. Shurtleff continues;

"'We didn't make the law,' he said. 'I can't enforce that law (against polygamy) except as an additional crime with something else like child abuse. You're not protected in that. You stand up and say you're proud to be a polygamist and people look down on you. Well, you made your choice. I'm telling you it is a crime. I don't know how to answer you when you ask, what will we do when we get more resources?'"

No, you can't, because it is an impossible law that would fall apart if tested in court. When the Supreme Court of this country has struck down "cohabitation" laws, how do you define Polygamy for the purposes of prosecution? You can't. He in fact, admits this in another article written about the same meeting;

The Salt Lake Tribune - "My belief is that the somewhat ill-conceived bigamy statute needs to be revised," he said. "It is outmoded [and] I doubt it would stand constitutional scrutiny at this time."

So when Mark declares it is a crime, and says he won't prosecute, he's saying it's not a crime. When he gets more resources what he will do as they did in Texas is single out Polygynists and persecute them. Tax evasion, welfare fraud, child abuse. Remember that if you live together in a group, your CPS knows if it rounds up and keeps a large enough number of people, they will find something. Texas tells us that they will move quickly to secure custody and delay procedurally forever until they can rake through every shred of evidence collected when they DIDN'T know of a crime, until they do find a crime.

The Arizona Attorney General said;

"(T)he 1953 Arizona raid on Short Creek, the historical name for Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., was a 'severe mistake.'"

Decoded? "We're waiting to see how Texas turns out, and when we come for you we won't make the mistakes they did."

"(Don) Timpson, along with several members of the audience, called for Utah and Arizona to decriminalize polygamy and to 'come out and get to know us.'"

That's what we need to get done. Legalize it. That means though, that Polygynists will have to toe legal lines to practice what they preach. I'm all for it. Just as long as we can do the same things monogamists do, polygynously.

Mark Shurtleff says, wait until after the election;

The Salt Lake Tribune - "As in previous years, some audience members asked the attorneys general for help in pushing for decriminalization of polygamy, which they said would do more to open the closed communities than any prosecutorial action.
Shurtleff's advice: 'Wait until after the election' to bring up any such proposals."

Translation, I'd rather not deal with this in the upcoming election cycle. Wait 'till next year. The last thing I need is another special interest group complicating the agenda.

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FLDS Child Custody Judges Appointed.

From GoSanAngelo;

In addition to 51st District Judge Barbara Walther, who has presided over the case, the following judges will preside over the hearings, court officials said this morning:

• 119th District Judge Ben Woodward
• 340th District Judge Jay Weatherby
• 391st Dustrict Judge Tom Gossett
• Retired Judge Marilyn Aboussie,former chief justice of the state's 3rd Court of Appeals.

This is a logistical move.

"The status hearings, required by law to be held before June 5 - the 60th day after 464 children were removed from the YFZ Ranch northeast of Eldorado - are usually perfunctory, little more than the state's Child Protective Services agency presenting a proposed plan the parents of removed children would be required to follow to win their children back and any objections from the parents' attorneys."

CPS has to do this by law. Unless some good legal help for the FLDS can find some way to gum this stage up, it will just be an exhibition of state power. More →

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A New Media Front opens on the FLDS Fiasco. The Austin American-Statesman.

Yup, learn how you get a reporter in front of you, and you THINK they're telling your story, and they're not. Since it's now at the State Level, with a Special Persecutor (sorry, Prosecutor) the Austin American-Statesman just EXPLODED with articles, after having been largely silent. The paper quotes an Isaac Wyler.

"'We are adding up the number of men who may be going to prison,' said Isaac Wyler, 42, the eldest of Wyler's 34 children, who was examining the list Sunday to see which men may have had wives under the legal age when they married."

That was not smart Isaac. I'm not even sure Mr. Wyler knows how many men could go to jail in Texas. In theory at least we're talking no more than 3. Two of the men with potentially underage brides are in fact very young themselves, and monogamists in practice, at the moment.

The article goes on to say that changes are being made. Subtle ones that may produce the unintended consequence of making it harder to conduct another raid such as happened in Eldorado.

"But as the raid's impact is digested there, individual FLDS families are making new decisions, too. In the past month, dozens of families have come forward to cooperate with a court-appointed officer and sign documents that could allow them to stay in their homes, most of which are owned by a trust once controlled by Warren Jeffs. Jeffs, the FLDS leader, is in prison after being convicted last year of being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old."

There is a clear attack on FLDS ways, with property now being apportioned in some way to individuals. While it is probably not the goal of those who are trying to break Warren's control over the FLDS, it may do them some good. Documenting individual residences will make it harder for someone to serve and execute a search warrant on the scale they did in Texas. More →

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Revisiting the questions...

I continue to muse about Rozita Swintons past. I have little capability to investigate beyond the ordinary internet user. In truth my discussion with Paula Underwood at the "Westview", I got what I regard to be unsatisfying answers.

An author named "Kate Rosemary" who her publisher claims is a "Pen Name" almost certainly is a pen name and is offered as Rozitas "Foster Mother." Excerpts from her published work "Raising Shane" were offered to KRDO in Denver and apparently name Rozita. I'm waiting to get copies of those pages and may have order the book to get them. Expensive in my present situation. "Kate" is said to be by her publisher, unwilling to give her real name because she wishes to protect foster children.

Right.

So you connect yourself to a national news figure whose involvement may be so deep in the case that she will be in the news for months. Because you want to protect the identity of foster children.

No.

I don't buy it. It was either dumb or a deceitful answer. No one can know reasons for the deceit, if it is that. Westview is also the publisher for "Kate Rosemary" and they're now touting a new work "After Disclosure" and "Kate" is said to be "working on a novel." That doesn't sound as if the author is trying to keep her charges protected. So if that is NOT the case and "Kate Rosemary" IS trying to capitalize on the Rozita Swinton mess, why would she conceal who she is? No one has interviewed "Kate Rosemary" even with in a "voice altered" "face pixelated" format. She hasn't called. Not to my knowledge.

Who is Kate Rosemary? At two am a little while ago I stuck the name out for some bites, and didn't get any. There is a reporter trying to help on this issue who has more resources, but I have not heard back from him. The media outlet he works for had a site update on her story today, but the content is the same as it was a week or two ago.

"Kate Rosemary" is Merry Cate Noel. The first work by "Kate Rosemary" was under that name and called "The Feminization of Job." This book has been rapidly repackaged by her publisher and touted even before that repackaging as one of the works referring to Rozita Swinton and being by "Kate Rosemary." It is now called "After Disclosure" and no reference is made to it's former author, Merry Cate Noel. If you scroll down, you can see that evidence in an earlier post. Book cover and all. So the owner of the property referring to Rozita Swinton is now trying to market that book by declaring loudly that she is in it, but saying we can't meet the author, because that might "harm the children" she had in her charge. Normally, that's a pile of something. I have fairly good information at the moment that there is a Merry Noel who is actively involved in foster care and adoption issues. It could be that Merry Noel is yet another pseudonym. In any case it smells. Merry Noel, if she exists as THAT person did foster care work most likely in Tennessee and most likely, is still there. Somebody see if you can find her. She is a public figure now, having published books and having tried to gain velocity from another public figure, Rozita Swinton. Find her. I know someone can.

The other question I have now that we have a lull in the action, that lull coming from the appointment of the Special Persecutor is partly answered by a reader. I got an email but not a post. Quoting from the email;

"The arrest warrant you address as being canceled was that in which Affidavit to Search and Arrest Warrant
# M O8 OO1 S was produced. It included warrant for the crime of Sexual Assault of a Child, Texas Penal Code Section 22.011, naming Dale Barlow to be arrested.

The second warrant in which Affidavit to Search and Arrest Warrant # M O8 OO2 S was produced, included Sexual Assault of a Child, Texas Penal Code Section 22.011 and Bigamy, Texas Penal Code Section 25.01 as charges directed at UNKNOWN individuals."

The writer goes on to mention the "fruit of the poison tree" issue. The second warrant is for bigamy and sexual abuse of a child. I'd think they have no evidence of bigamy. By this time they have been able to put that issue to rest. More →

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The Bishops Record

Brooke Adams of the Salt Lake Tribune who has been very even handed in this whole matter, examines the "Bishops Record." Some key passages from her article.

"Texas officials focused on five girls who conceived when they were 15 or 16, all of whom then gave birth recently when they were 16 or 17. According to the bishop's record, three of those teenagers are in plural relationships with men who are 28, 35 and 40. One teenager, who is pregnant, is not listed on the records."

Again I repeat, there are no charges, yet. Texas is focusing on five girls the article says, who conceived when they were 15 or 16. Again Texas blurs the record in their favor and it may very well end up being in their favor, but what is "15 or 16?" Because we now know this for certain.

"Until 2005, Texas allowed girls as young as 14 to marry with a parent's permission; in September of that year, the age was increased to 16. In Texas, residents can legally consent to sex at age 17."

This is confirmed by a kind and knowledgeable Texas poster on this blog who thankfully commented and left me that information. Under the statute they CAN marry at 16 so which is it, 15 or 16? I'm still trying to clarify if they can marry informally, but it looks like they may not, despite what former Hamlin Texas Mayor Tom Avant says. But more important is WHEN a 15 or 16 year old girl GOT pregnant. If it was August 2005, it doesn't matter. So we come to the next variable phrase in murky Texas CPS lingo. They gave birth "recently" when they were 16 or 17. Was that a year ago? 18 months ago? If you're 17 when you gave birth in May of 2006 it means you were 17 or 16 when you conceived the preceding year and 19 now. Texas has historically given us ranges when they don't have much to stand on. Frankly, it's not important what ages they were when they "first conceived", it is important WHEN they first conceived and how old they are NOW. Everything else is a smokescreen.

"The bishop's records do not include marriage dates or information about whether the marriages are legally recorded and, in all but a few instances, do not match children's names to their mothers."

Since we know that legal marriages of 14 year old girls occurred in 2006 in Texas after SB6, this is a hugely important thing to determine. Personally, I think they're not recorded. But they could be and Texas STILL doesn't know if they are. That means there STILL is no evidence of a crime. They continue to dig, but they don't have the evidence yet.

"The wives' ages ranged from 16 to 39, with an average age of 21. There are two 16-year-old females listed as wives of men who were 19 and 22. Those two couples were among six young pairs shown as having no children. Most of the monogamous couples are close in age, with the biggest age spread being four years."

These are MONOGAMOUS relationships.

"The records for 24 polygamous families tell a different story: The age discrepancy between husband and wives is greater and most have a large number of children.
The average age of the husbands was 38, but ages ranged from 24 to 67. One 54-year-old man is listed as having six wives, including one who is 17. A 56-year-old man has four wives, including one who is 19.
Wendell L. Nielsen, now in his late 60s and part of the FLDS hierarchy, is listed as having 21 wives, who ranged in age from 79 to 24, and 36 children. That count does not include Nielsen's children who are older than 21 and not at the ranch."

Ok then, there are your old men bending over 13 year old girls. Um, they're my age, and the girls are of age. 17 & 19.

I think the FLDS dispute the age of the two 16 year old brides, but if their marriages are legally recorded, end of story there.

As near as I can tell the raid to stop an old man from raping and beating and imprisoning a young girls is going to end up with prosecutions of a 19 year old and a 22 year old man. Monogamous men. Men who could have gotten a piece of paper to solemnify their relationships yet now stand the chance of going to prison for life for not doing something that amounts to putting a license plate on the car they drive. That car being synonymous with their marriage.

One step further. 16 year old brides, two. Monogamously wed. 17 and 19 year old brides, polygynously wed. Four. Oh, hear she is.

"One teenager, who is pregnant, is not listed on the records."

Five. And the age of that "Teenager" is not given. Teenagers CAN be 19 you know. If the four brides who gave birth at 15 or 16 are these girls, and they pretty much have to be for it to matter, they are 16 now, so they recently gave birth but are in monogamous relationships. The ones in polygynous relationships are 17 or 19 and if they were 15 when they gave birth did so in 2004 and 2006, meaning they probably got pregnant in 2003 and 2005. The statute went into effect late in 2005. Hmmm...and we have no arrests.
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Surrender Monkey Harry Reid goes on Offense, against US Citizens who are Polygynists.

I say bring it on you gutless surrender monkey. You can't go after terrorists who kill US Citizens, but you're going to send the Polygyny Police after us. Bring it Harry, you'll just wind up legalizing it.

WASHINGTON -Salt Lake Tribune- "Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid called Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff today to say the two should 'kiss and make up' after the they dueled this week in news reports over action taken against crimes in polygamous communities.
Reid, D-Nev., blasted Utah and Arizona in a radio interview on Monday, saying officials in the two states were afraid of taking action against the polygamous sects in their states because the groups had developed political clout. Shurtleff, a Republican, and Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard, a Democrat, fired back that Reid was ignorant of their efforts.
Wednesday morning, Reid called both attorneys general and was helping to set up a meeting between the two and the U.S. Justice Department to boost coordination between the agencies.
'He called to say, "Let's kiss and make up. We have the same goal and that's to get more federal involvement,'" Shurtleff said of his conversation with Reid.
Reid's comments to KUER's Doug Fabrizio were prompted by the raid of a Texas compound in which several hundred children were removed from their homes and an investigation into child abuse launched. Reid said he was a cheerleader for what Texas did and that Utah and Arizona should have done it decades ago.
On Wednesday, after The Tribune and other news outlets reported on the political flare-up, Reid and Shurtleff agreed to move on and talked about their mutual goal of establishing a federal task force to look into potential federal crimes within the various polygamous sects. Some estimates show about 60,000 polygamists living in Utah and Arizona, though Nevada also has a share of polygamists as well.
Reid spokesman Jon Summer said the discussion is yielding results.
'Looks like everything is moving in the right direction as far as stepping up enforcement,' Summers said. "And, at the end of the day, the ultimate goal is to step up enforcement and to protect children and women from abusive situations."

Sure, advocate for the rights of homosexuals, (Rated 67% by the HRC, indicating a mixed record on gay rights. (Dec 2006)) but attack heterosexual persons with sincere religious convictions. Make my day Harry.
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