He has a case, that's key, but this is too:
Nevertheless, Piccarreta is confident enough to proceed with everything all over again in Arizona, which means he's not just saying he thinks there is only one good answer for appearances sake. He doesn't just believe it because he's so close to the problem. Piccarreta thinks he can do it.
The San Angelo Standard Times - "Noting that Walther signed the warrant for the YFZ search, Piccarreta said he’s skeptical that she’d essentially reverse that decision by granting the suppression motion.It's political. Michael might be wrong though.
Piccarreta said granting the suppression motion will be an easier task for Mohave County Superior Court Judge Steve Conn, who has no political capital at stake regarding events in Texas. Piccarreta said there’s no dispute that the YFZ search was a product of Rosita Swinton’s misrepresentations and lies that she was a teenager impregnated by Dale Barlow of Arizona at the YFZ ranch."
"Piccarreta said he expects an appeal if Walther rejects the suppression motion."I'm still holding out the real possibility that Walther will recuse herself. Walther does know her limitations. I get continuing impressions of that based on her behavior in the various hearings that have been going on. She's given herself enough time to "show" her work, or better yet, show Goldstein's work to others. I still figure she'll be bowing out. In which case there may be yet another "evidentiary hearing" or the evidence may be ruled out.
Nevertheless, Piccarreta is confident enough to proceed with everything all over again in Arizona, which means he's not just saying he thinks there is only one good answer for appearances sake. He doesn't just believe it because he's so close to the problem. Piccarreta thinks he can do it.
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35 comments:
The warrant, the second warrant, to search everyone's house without particular probable cause, just an overly-broad, blanket "probable cause," should be enough to render the seizures illegal. Walther could rule on this one point and all the other points would be moot. The fact that in the face of all these Constitutional slam-dunks, Walther still balks, shows she's biased, and, yes, should recuse herself.
Reasonable suspicion is not enough to raid dozens of autonomous homes.
Is Walther's problem that of Nixon? Namely that Nixon (Walther) wasn't involved in the original wrong doing, but became involved through cover up?
Is it Clinton's? Namely, Bill Clinton was in fact caught with his pants down, he was involved. He committed the seminal (bwahahaha) act that caused the problem?
I strongly believe that Walther is cornered, either covering up or participating, it doesn't matter. Thus recusal becomes the way out where she can hope/influence/blackmail someone else into allowing the evidence and gaining the appearance of neutrality.
She's utterly hopeless. Walther is not a competent jurist, she is one of the penultimate small town power players. Prior to all this scrutiny Walther could just wave her gavel and cut through Gordian Knot after Gordian Knot, though those decisions could hardly be called wisdom, they did work, for her, and her companions.
I shiver to think what would happen to you if you were in Walther's court on a real charge when the politics weren't working your way. It would be an all to real version of "My Cousin Vinny" without the rescue at the end.
Hold on Hugh the presumption is that Rozita did it based upon Goldstein's phone records, Sheriff Doran's witnessed 90 second deadhead phone call, Ranger Phillip Kemp's circumstantial phone chronology sent to the Texas AG's Offices and Sheriff Doran's having one of the suspected 'Sarah' cell phone numbers? Does seem to be convincing or iron clad evidence to me. For this above information to come out a 'Motion to Suppress' hearing of proof was held and for this reason Judge Walther's should recuse herself? I wish to express my Best Wishes and Good Luck to Mike Piccarreta in Arizona on his 'Motion to Suppress', he's gonna' need it.
Jam,
Philip Kemp said he examined Rozita's phone and a record of Sheriff Doran's 90 second phone call was on it.
I'm guessing on the recusal thing but my guess is based on Walther being in a tight spot. Namely, she has been part of the prosecution from the get go or she joined it later. The Nixon example fits in the latter case, Clinton in the former. She thus cannot rule against the evidence which would be the smart thing to do now. Goldstein gave her that chance by saying that she had been deceived. She could have played "Shocked and Surprised," but didn't.
That tells me that she's involved.
Doran withheld. (Documented now under oath)
Long has Lied. (Also documented under oath.)
That should be enough but it apparently hasn't been.
So considering Ranger Phillip Kemp's work did he review any recorded messages, were any voice prints compared, any eyewitness accounts by persons in the phone calls, any proof substantial enough to bring charges on any 'hoax' caller? Why with this information wasn't Attorney Goldstein at his game to present some of this evidence. Goldstein brought up the one-half hour apart two phone calls on 29 March, 2008 and not testimony on either call as to who was involved on the calls, what was discussed or how it addresses the case? The Prosecution Eric Nichols stated that none of Goldsteins 25 bound binders of material facts impeached the "Probable Cause" contained in the affidavits or was evidence that Ranger Long knew the victim outcry of "Sarah" was a falsehood. The motion itself asserts that Ranger Long authored the affidavits himself and lied about that fact. The SLTrib reported on 5/15/2008 that,"Today, Long testified that he did not share all of what the hotline worker had told authorities, but did work with the attorney to decide what to put in the affidavit". So the assertion in the motion that Long had acted alone in drafting the affidavits was proven to be wrong.
Jam,
Goldstein revealed some of this in questioning the witnesses. What came up over last weekend in Walther's court, was that Doran called Rozita's phone. He says the call lasted 90 seconds and no one answered. There's no recording of that call, to my knowledge.
Doran had to admit to this because Rozita's phones were examined and/or taken into evidence on April 16th, 2008. When her phone was inspected, there was a 90 second call on it from David Doran's cell phone.
If Long did not act on his own, then we need to know who did the acts that he is now supposed to have done, that were done by someone.
You seem to think that the defense must allege EXACTLY what happened and never be wrong to prove it's case. If that was true, no court appearances would ever be necessary, we'd all just file briefs. You have a trial or a hearing or a deposition to get people under oath and test assumptions. Your assumptions need not be right going in, but you sure can formulate some better ones after you've brought people in, sat them down, sworn them in and started asking them questions under penalty of perjury and contempt of court.
Jam Inn, they don't really have to prove that it was Rozita anyway. There's more than enough evidence that whoever made the phone calls wasn't on the ranch, wasn't part of the FLDS, and never had been.
Hugh says: "He says the call lasted 90 seconds and no one answered."
Did he say "no one answered"?
How is there a record of the call if "no one answered"? Your phone bill doesn't show calls that were not answered.
The hearing has an exploratory aspect and I am not asserting that it has to be EXACTLY correct in every assertion but was any new evidence been brought forward that impeaches the affidavits which statements swear to "Probable Cause"? Ranger Long reasserts that the New Bridge Shelter operators gave rise to his belief that an abuse case had been reported and he was legally bound to act. Any evidence presented to prove that Long is misstating his mindset/beliefs at the time the search warrant was issued? Any proof of a 'reckless disregard of the laws'? Goldstein's stating that the Court was not kept fully apprized, that a larger search and removal was preplanned or material facts would have precluded the search warrants ever having been signed can certainly be presented but not necessarily validated by the evidence or facts stated at the time the writ was signed. Sheriff Doran's role was to serve the search warrant at the YFZ Ranch at the behest of CPS. He didn't interview, investigate or attain the search warrants. His calling on April 8 for 90 seconds and having possession of the Swinton phone number is curious and interesting, does it prove anything in and of itself? Someone had to have answered the call in order for the call to register and what does that prove?
What does Doran having the phone number and calling it prove? I'm going to guess, but one is that he had the number a while before that. I seem to recall an account which I cannot find at the moment that says they called the number to see if they could hear it ringing. That may have been a cover story for what they knew might come up later.
If Doran called that number on the 8th, that means someone had it to give it to him and had it before the 8th, that's almost certain.
Another thing Jam, you need to seriously consider that you are bowing to totalitarianism. As Headmistress and many others before her have pointed out, if the police can do this to the FLDS, they can do it to you. Think of what this means and why it means that the warrants must be vacated and the FLDS freed. If this is not done a dangerous precedent is set in this country, which is that the police only need the flimsiest of causes to invade your home. They can in fact act on the tip of an obvious prank call and turn your life upside down.
There must be a higher standard or we have lost our constitutional rights.
Hugh individual Liberties and Freedoms are a rallying cry to every "Red, White and Blue" patriot but can you really rest your head peacefully knowing what has come forward about this particular religious sects teachings and practices? The stories of Short Creek and how Hildale/Colorado City were being operated with Police, Officials & Utility commission all answering to the FLDS Church? Do we preserve our Freedoms and Liberties when we allow tyranny to manifest under the guise of Religious Freedom or 'One Man Rule'? Pedophilia is not a freedom of religion choice nor issue in the United States. Warren Jeffs has stated in his dictations that he challenges the authority of the government to stop his right to marry underage, as well as multiple wives, do you ignore the precedent he has stated and expressed his willingness to die for his belief?
"Philip Kemp said he examined Rozita's phone and a record of Sheriff Doran's 90 second phone call was on it."
As cheese said, I think phone records log the time in between when a person picks up or when the voicemail clicks on, and when the caller hangs up. Usually it takes about 30 seconds of ringing to reach voicemail. So either Doran reached Swinton's voicemail or someone picked up and ... said nothing? For at least 60 seconds? That scenario doesn't sound very probable.
Don't waste time on this "Jam Inn" (probably Natalie Malonis). You should nix her posts. Anyone who claims, tongue in cheek, in the face of all we know about Rozita's calls, that no one, not one single person, in the league of anti-FLDS schemers had any doubt of their authenticity is trying to make you out to be a fool.
Z,
They aren't getting any traction at their websites, and know it, so, they come to us. Sokay, I find it entertaining.
Quote from WSJeffs, 2003," I say, in the name of the Lord, there is no underage marriage in a priesthood marriage, in celestial marriage. God has the right to rule. The Lord had me take these two underage girls on purpose, to show that I and we, this people, are with Him, with God, not fearing man".
On April 13, 2002 then Mayor Sam Barlow reported to the assembled FLDS Priesthood Meeting, as follows," We are now legislated purposely [UT/AZ] to bring us into collision with the judiciary and particularly to make Uncle Rulon [Jeffs] collide with the judiciary. So we are talking about criminal things. And when you deal in criminal you have to be careful, because there's some ramifications to it". So the FLDS leadership & Priesthood not only had foreknowledge, legal advice(s) and ample warning from law authorities they chose to move forward, buying enclaves in Texas, Colorado, South Dakota, Idaho, etc. and continued the "criminal things". Sam Barlow further proclaimed to the Priesthood,"Many of us were held in reserve--[in Heaven]came to the Earth at this time and we are born to this conflict. We can not shirk it, leave it or turn aside for even a moment--without a element of cowardess growing in our souls". Hugh this is obviously some form of Prophetic religious fervor being fomented amongst the FLDS Church faithful and not singularly the State trampling upon our Constitutional Rights as Americans citizens.
Jam,
What's your point? That Warren Jeffs can do more harm than the state can by discarding attention to our rights?
BROOKS LIED.
DORAN WITHHELD.
It SHOULD BE GAME OVER, and you should be with us on that. More little girls will be raped, more of us will suffer, under a state with no restrictions in a year than the FLDS can manage in the next hundred years.
Where does 'One Man Rule', Child Brides and tyrannical theocracy find a rightful place within our Democracy and under our Constitutional form of government? This sect has purchased new enclaves in Texas, South Dakota, Nevada, Colorado, Idaho so as the fanatical fervor spreads your sole focus is containing Attorney General's, Law Enforcement and Judiciary in each State with your preoccupation with Libertarian idealism. Hugh you claim to be in search of the truth but your agenda says to let guilty persons go based upon some unfounded belief that forestalling law enforcement is the greater good?
You don't demand perfection from the defense but you insist on it when it comes to the prosecution. Ranger Long may have mistakenly represented the medical center investigation of any "Sarah" records and Sheriff Doran didn't withold any information, he answered readily once Ranger Kemp asked, your misstating the details and putting your own spin on it.
Ziggy sorry no Natalie Malonis here.
Odd, my agenda to let guilty people go is exactly the same as the founders of this country, who believed that a few guilty getting loose was the bargain you strike for liberty.
You'll not get an argument from me that what the FLDS men at YFZ did was illegal. You'll not get an argument from me that Texas has every right to prosecute and punish such men.
You're getting an argument from me on how Texas may go about apprehending those men. It would be better for them to go free, than it would be for them to be caught, tried and convicted by the methods Texas employed.
Beyond that I don't think that polygyny should be illegal and I don't think it's immoral, so it's really hard for me to see what they did as serious, beyond the fact that we should all, where possible, respect the law and it was certainly possible for these men to do that.
It still remains.
Brooks Lied.
Doran Withheld.
The Game SHOULD BE AWARDED TO THE FLDS on RULES violations.
Jam Inn,
Where does your "democracy" find a rightful place within our Constitutional Republic? Maybe you should do a little more studying in relation to the reason why there's even a "United States of America"!
Swish, nothing but net!
I say, in the name of the Lord, there is no underage marriage in a priesthood marriage, in celestial marriage. God has the right to rule. The Lord had me take these two underage girls on purpose, to show that I and we, this people, are with Him, with God, not fearing man".Jam In, yes this is a clear act of defiance by Jeffs back in '03, but since then they have announced they are towing the line with respect to the law and underage marriages. At any rate this particular example is between Jeffs and LE.
The search was illegal and a violation of constitutional rights. IMO it is better that a guilty person go free than an innocent person locked up.
Sorry Hugh I shan't be with you on your view that the game should be called on technicalities, when the evidence is enough to achieve a full and lawful conviction. I would like to leave you with Christopher Hitchins observation on parallels between religion and totalitarianism, he says:
"The urge to ban and censor books, silence dissenters, condemn outsiders, invade the private sphere and invoke an exclusive salvation is the very essence of the totalitarian".
Cheese "SWOOSH"! All nylon at the buzzer!!!
Jam,
What you're saying is that the ends justifies the means, that any illegal act is justified by the discovered crime at the end.
I cannot agree. This leads to evidence planting as one of many unacceptable results. All the police must do is break down doors and then come up with some crime at the end of the search that justifies their entry.
What happens when there is no crime or what happens when we have multiplied laws so much that all of us are probably guilty of SOMETHING, such as an environmental hazard or tax problems.
The warrants must be specific and justified, or yes, it's "GAME OVER."
If not we live under tyranny.
Hugh I don't believe and would never espouse that the ends justify the means. That is an indefensible amoral stance and idiotic assertion. I , also, believe in innocent until proven guilty, which grants the advantage to the accused. Obviously, the FLDS lives in a covert society and sequesters away their membership because of the reasons leveled by their apostates, which is intimidation, veiled threats, manipulated celestial unions, sexual exploitation, narrowed choices and 'Divine Right' of the Prophet prevails within the FlDS Church communities.
You are in fact advocating "The ends justify the means" Jam. You don't think you do, or perhaps you would not.
There must be a standard for entry into a home other that "I'm really really really sure something bad is going on in there.
Let's review. We have a caller who alleged certain crimes who needed coaching to reach the level of being believable.
We have Doran and Long both saying that they think she might be lying about her age and name. They have to be expressing real doubt because of the next point.
Their doubt is not expressed as has been suggested, because they think she may have lied to the hospital, because they did not call the hospital. Thus they attest to having doubts that are contemporaneous with her call, about her truthfulness regarding Name and Age. That means they don't really believe her.
Doran withholds evidence, namely, Rozita's phone number. He has not been forthcoming so we don't know how long he withheld the evidence, but we do know that before the raid was over he had her phone number and called it, because his phone number is on Rozita's phone.
Long Lies. He said there was an investigation of "Sarah's" visit to the emergency room, he said so in testimony to the Arizona court.
Thus law enforcement is shown to have manipulated the facts during the raid an after the raid. They lied during the raid and after the raid to cover it up. They cannot be trusted. Common sense tells us we have found but the tip of the iceberg.
For freedom to exist, cause must exist to abridge freedom. Crimes often go undetected and unpunished because no cause exists. The very fact that Long and Doran (and who knows how many others) lied to manufacture cause says THERE WAS NO CAUSE because if there was cause THEY WOULD NOT HAVE LIED BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE NO NEED.
The power of the state is so great that not only do we grant the defendant the status of "innocent until proven guilty" but we grant them the right to be free from "unreasonable search and seizure." If fabricating evidence, withholding evidence and lying about evidence and covering up all of these activities do not constitute unreasonable search and seizure, I cannot think what would.
I too desire to see the guilty punished but how do you propose that we rectify cases of demonstrably unreasonable search and seizure? Do you propose to do so by punishing those so victimized as if they were not subjected to such a search? Do you propose that the CRIMINALS who inflicted such a violation of their rights get what they want, keep their jobs and remain free?
Hugh come on a caller that was coached to a believable level? I assume you refer to the non charged 'person of interest' who has had her phone record chronology referred to the Texas AG's Office by Ranger Kemp?
Just how extensive and how many conspiracies are you going to hatch here under your guise of reviewing the fractured facts?
Of course, were not going to review the FLDS falsehoods like meeting in 2004 with Sheriff Doran and Justice of the Peace Doyle and admitting that there is no Hunting Lodge Plan. Followed by the verbal reassurance that the ranch residency will remain below 200 persons. Dale Evans Barlow was told during his cell call-in to Sheriff Doran to turn himself in within one half-hour to local authorities and he chose to record a voice-message to his Probation Officer and showed up the next morning in person, Attorney Goldstein in his motion speculated that Ranger Long may have authored an abridged version of the signed affidavits and it turns out an attorney drafted the writs.Two FLDS men were arrested for interderring with Lawmen in the conduct of their duty, including shreading documents for which a felony charge is pending. Flora Jessop was in contact with a 'Sarah' caller and may have provided Sheriff Doran with this number, not so onerous as you make it sound and how/when he got the number is unknown but you state he withheld it? He called the number on 8 April, 2008, which is 5 days after the search warrant service date.
Jam,
Everything I said is a matter of record. If you dispute it you're hoping that the reader here is uneducated. I can't help it if you're in denial.
April 8th is during the raid, and I linked to an authoritative source to document this as fact.
The fact that Doran called on the 8th is virtual proof he had the number prior to that date. The fact that he withheld this knowledge tells me he was probably covering up. The fact that Long Lied, another documented fact in the court record, proves they have some larger truth they wish to cover up. Both men need to be arrested. There is sufficient probable cause that they knowingly fabricated evidence and hid other evidence.
OK Hugh I am in complete denial about your 'hoax' caller because there is no charge. 'Virtual Proof' that Sheriff Doran had the cell number before April 8, 2008 is akin to 'Virtual Reality' in a Court of Law. I'll grant your wish for two arrests, if you'll grant me just one polygraph of Dale Evans Barlow. For someone who is on guard about excessive police state practices you sure are 'really, really, really' quick to judge two Lawmen and one' person of interest'. At least your consistently inconsistent.
The only reason Rozita Swinton isn't charged is that Texas doesn't want to know. Just like at best, Brooks didn't want to know, and neither did David Doran.
Polygraph's are junk. Polygraph anyone you want who will let you. I hiccuped during one once, and the operator called the diaphragm needle movement (it was the only one that moved) a "lie response."
They're junk, the operators lie or are incompetent. Hook up your dog if you like to one of them. If you HONESTLY believe there is a real YFZ member named "Sarah" and that Dale beat her, you probably believe there was someone on the "Grassy Knoll" and that their are dead alien bodies in "area 13."
I also want Doran and Long to have their day in court, but they have to be arrested first.
Or is that area 31? I can never get it straight....
Hugh concerning Rozita Swinton you can charge, or in your case conspire it, but just like she says,"Prove It"!
I am not the one here hatching all the conspiracies, Hugh but you are. Sheriff Doran conspired to withhold information based upon having a phone number and making a cell call on April 8, 2008. Ranger Long conspired with a lie about investigating medical records for Sarah Barlow, based upon your crackerjack investigation as proof of a cover-up. You're probably still looking for the stockpiled chemical weapons in the Iraqi desert. You really should get all this information to Gerald H. Goldstein, it's so half baked he can use it in his formal closing argument to Judge Walther.
News Flash! They DID find WMDs in Iraq! As soon as WMD's were found, it was decided by the "Bush Lied/People Died" crowd that because it wasn't "a lot" of "WMD" then "Bush still lied."
News Flash! Conspiracies happen. I'm just one of those guys that know that where three people are in a conspiracy, the chances are dead even one will rat the conspiracy out. Thus I don't believe in massive "secret" conspiracies that can never be proven, like the persistant idiocy of the "Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy."
This conspiracy is outted already. Doran DID withhold. This is established by testimony over the last weekend.
Long DID lie, this is also established by testimony in December of last year, and testimony over the weekend.
The calls DID come from Rozita's phone number, her innocence is only technical and I submit that she has plead guilty already to a similar charge in Colorado and is now trying to get off a second similar charge for reasons of "mental impairment" which is the same thing as saying "I did it."
The established FACT that the calls came from her phones brings up only one other possibility for a caller. Someone else called from her phones, not her. This makes me owe Rozita a lifetime of regular apologies but then the problem gets far worse for Texas. CSPD had possession of her phones at one time, so did they KEEP them? If so, WHO CALLED? That gets into the Kennedy Grassy Knoll territory or "Aliens have Landed" scenarios. Too weird for my blood and to that, I'll say PROVE IT myself.
Right now Rozita is the only real suspect for the phone caller, with the distant second caller suspect being longtime Pal and sometime roommate Becky Lynn Hoerth.
You also forget or perhaps never knew "Jam," that I have acutally done some of the investigatory ground work on the "investigation" of Texas into phone calls from Colorado Springs. I have taled to Agent Steve Smith of the FBI in Colorado Springs, and I have talked to Sean Mandel of CSPD. Texas'new version still doesn't square with the facts and the version that Philip Kemp offers is almost certainly still a lie, and contradicts the statements made to me by Agent Smith and Lt. Mandel of the CSPD.
Wow.
In a way I guess one could admire the way anyone could defend the idea that there was no cover-up, and no hoax caller. Even more admirable is that anyone could still possibly believe that there's a real "as descibed" Sarah. Talk about faith.
Someone had to have answered the call in order for the call to register and what does that prove?Not true. Jam Inn, Hugh already took care of most of your nonsense, but I'll note that you don't seem to understand how cell phones work. Any call, incoming or outgoing, and any text message you send, is noted on your phone, easily accessible by anyone, unless you specifically delete the entry. It doesn't matter whether you answer or not, and it doesn't matter whether the caller leaves a message with voicemail.
It's Area 51
Yeah, like I said, "Area 51...."
.....what?
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